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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 20 post(s) |
Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Sicarius Draconis
94
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Posted - 2014.02.09 17:13:00 -
[1] - Quote
It would seem that outside that, this thread has turned into three things. 1st) an outlet for Goons to release smug. 2nd) an outlet for incursion runners to release butt hurt. 3rd) and outlet for blaming CCP to causing the problem to begin with.
I'm asking the ISD to close this thread as since page 35 it was no longer serving its role. Blasters for life
https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com |
Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Sicarius Draconis
94
|
Posted - 2014.02.11 00:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote:Naw, it's generally preferable to knock a couple of easy ones out of the park immediately
not only does it make the game better for everyone who matters basically instantly
but it shows the player base that they are making incremental improvements rather than stagnating with their noses to the grindstone and nothing to show for it The only issue is that this doesn't make the game better for everyone. And contrary to the intent of your statement, everyone matters to some degree. Depending on where you stand the incursion impact may be something individuals see as inconsequential, or if you are bitter enough, beneficial, but it's not a step in a positive direction. Additionally the impact there is arguably greater than the impact to large scale drone conflicts where the argument of 99% of the fleet assisting and walking away becomes 90% doing the same. This assumes that the omni nerf didn't discourage drone fleets on the subcap end enough to initiate some shifts in doctrine already. Having nothing to show but a nuisance neither inspires the idea that the love drones need is incoming, nor makes things better for any group outside of those where the numbers involved can make working around it much less consequential.
You missed the part where he said for everyone that MATTERS. You sir on your Gallente alt are just a puppie who does not matter. How you should have read that MATTERS is Clusterfuck Coalition. Blasters for life
https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com |
Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Sicarius Draconis
94
|
Posted - 2014.02.11 04:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
At this point I'm inclined to to agree with Grath and Mario. This "fix" is dumb and does not solve the issue. Instead CCP should be working on a complete Drone overhaul. From tracking and damage output of fighters to a drone bandwidth assist cap, to drone coding, and the drone UI. This all needs to be done in in a single expansion, not a "fixed" soon(tm) point patch.
EDITED: autotype Blasters for life
https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com |
Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Sicarius Draconis
94
|
Posted - 2014.02.11 06:23:00 -
[4] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Weaselior wrote:you meant No, I meant exactly what I just said. Is English not your first language? Promiscuous Female wrote:also frankly your position shows a very low amount of respect for CCP Well good I was wondering if it showed given that the thread is about drone assist and is not about the CRIMINAL GOONSPIRACY I am gonna go ahead and cut out a lot of unnecessary rhetoric arguments here and just call you silly for attempting to twist your post, vague as it is, as being about anything other than drone assist otherwise your post is dangerously offtopic weaselior's point still stands, please stick to the topic at hand sir the posting community thanks you
Yes Grath stay on topic, only members of the CFC are aloud to derail this thread. Blasters for life
https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com |
Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Sicarius Draconis
94
|
Posted - 2014.02.11 09:18:00 -
[5] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3463077#post3463077 CCP Rise wrote:We are obviously aware of the conversation around drone assist and this change doesn't really aim to have a massive effect on sentry-doctrines as a whole. Drone assist is a much larger issue and we aren't looking to make any changes to it for [Odyssey] 1.1. We would love to do work on drones overall, but for now I can't make any promises about when that will happen or how it will look. This indicates that CCP was aware of the problems around drone assist (it being "a much larger issue") in early August of last year.
Which is fine, but as Grath and Mario have been saying for the last 10 pages, this fix does not fix what CCP Rise said he was trying to fix. It does not fix AFK and it does not fix server issues. Blasters for life
https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com |
Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Sicarius Draconis
94
|
Posted - 2014.02.11 09:28:00 -
[6] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Nobody is saying that drone assist causes server issues. What they are saying is that drone assist led to an overusage of drone heavy doctrines, resulting in more drones being used, resulting in server issues. Without drone assist, people won't use drone heavy doctrines, doctrines that do have drones but don't rely on them may elect not to launch them so as to avoid putting undue pressure on the server, etc.
It's really not that hard. Rise also never said he wanted to fix AFK, he said "passive gameplay" which is definitely not the same thing.
If it was solely Drone Assist that lead to the overuse of drones then it would have been taken out 7 years ago as Mario said. Which leads into Grath's point, make this change as part of a Complete drone overhaul and not a point patch, that still does not fix the issues of "passive gameplay" and server issues. Blasters for life
https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com |
Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Sicarius Draconis
94
|
Posted - 2014.02.11 10:22:00 -
[7] - Quote
Fix Sov wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:Fix Sov wrote:Phox Jorkarzul wrote:If it was solely Drone Assist that lead to the overuse of drones then it would have been taken out 7 years ago as Mario said. Drones weren't useful enough back then to become the sole offensive weapon used by a majority of a fleet. Bullshit people have been assigning drones forever. What caused the overuse of drones was the mega buff to the Domi and the Ishtar, because the drones themselves, Drone Link Augmentors, and Omindirection Tracking links have been the same for just about forever. Which increased the usefulness of the drones. :science:
Which as Grath said, had nothing to do with drone assist so :science: Blasters for life
https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com |
Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Sicarius Draconis
94
|
Posted - 2014.02.11 10:40:00 -
[8] - Quote
Fix Sov wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:So that would mean that they over buffed those two ships (sentries on Geddons kinda suck balls) so why not just curb the problem ships a bit? You're missing a ship which has suddenly become very popular as well. It's okay, I understand why you want that to be untouched.
Carriers? Sentry fleets have been popular on carriers before the the Domis and Ishtars. If I remember right it was in a STOA in 2012 that Goons were saying "we need a Bootcarrier" in every hanger. That didn't make drone assist broken then? Blasters for life
https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com |
Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Sicarius Draconis
94
|
Posted - 2014.02.11 10:48:00 -
[9] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Phox Jorkarzul wrote:
If it was solely Drone Assist that lead to the overuse of drones then it would have been taken out 7 years ago as Mario said. Which leads into Grath's point, make this change as part of a Complete drone overhaul and not a point patch, that still does not fix the issues of "passive gameplay" and server issues.
Because changing every aspect of drones at once is a great idea and means CCP will know exactly which change they made caused the player base to stop using drones entirely and cry that they are too weak now. While changes implemented one by one in a drip feeding fashion will have no useful metrics over the player bases response to each change, for them to draw conclusions from as to how it fits with their intent of the change.
I see what you did there and I like it, hell I even approve it. my point still stands that a Drone OVERhaul would be preferable to a point patch, that doesn't fix a single thing they set out to fix.
On the side of metrics I want to see the Metric of the amount of "Fun" and "Enjoyment" that is being had in fleets that CCP seemed to have a good sense of. Blasters for life
https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com |
Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Sicarius Draconis
94
|
Posted - 2014.02.11 10:58:00 -
[10] - Quote
Grath Telkin wrote:Phox Jorkarzul wrote: On the side of metrics I want to see the Metric of the amount of "Fun" and "Enjoyment" that is being had in fleets that CCP seemed to have a good sense of.
Obviously judging by the size of the fights in the war and the overall level of destruction people are absolutely bored out of their mind, sheesh guy get with the narrative
Its hard to keep up with it now, I'm getting lost in spin. Blasters for life
https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com |
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Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Sicarius Draconis
94
|
Posted - 2014.02.11 11:04:00 -
[11] - Quote
Fix Sov wrote:Phox Jorkarzul wrote:Fix Sov wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:So that would mean that they over buffed those two ships (sentries on Geddons kinda suck balls) so why not just curb the problem ships a bit? You're missing a ship which has suddenly become very popular as well. It's okay, I understand why you want that to be untouched. Carriers? Sentry fleets have been popular on carriers before the the Domis and Ishtars. If I remember right it was in a STOA in 2012 that Goons were saying "we need a Bootcarrier" in every hanger. That didn't make drone assist broken then? No, drone assist was just as labor intensive then as it is now, that hasn't changed. What has changed is the number of people who've had experience with them as the primary damage output mechanism.
By that same idea you could say that all weapons need to hit with a nerf bat cause over the past ten years more people have have experience with everything in the game so it is clearly broken. Blasters for life
https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com |
Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Sicarius Draconis
94
|
Posted - 2014.02.11 12:16:00 -
[12] - Quote
Fix Sov wrote:I know the narrative is that it's all the CFC's fault, but I'm pretty certain James demonstrated in https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4221569#post4221569 that it was a concern well before "the CFC" started using it, they just weren't making any changes to them for 1.1. We're beyond 1.1 territory now, and they're now looking to make changes.
Blasters for life
https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com |
Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Sicarius Draconis
95
|
Posted - 2014.02.11 12:17:00 -
[13] - Quote
Fix Sov wrote:I know the narrative is that it's all the CFC's fault, but I'm pretty certain James demonstrated in https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4221569#post4221569 that it was a concern well before "the CFC" started using it, they just weren't making any changes to them for 1.1. We're beyond 1.1 territory now, and they're now looking to make changes.
I disagree that it is the CFC's fault. That is not my narrative. I saw the link that James posted and I fully understand that they were thinking about doing something. What I'm saying is they are doing something that does not achive either of the goals that they set out to achieve.
N3/PL will still use large fleets that use drones and players will still not enjoy large scale fights in 10% tidi. So neither goal solved. Blasters for life
https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com |
Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Sicarius Draconis
95
|
Posted - 2014.02.11 12:22:00 -
[14] - Quote
Mario Putzo wrote:Fix Sov wrote:I know the narrative is that it's all the CFC's fault, but I'm pretty certain James demonstrated in https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4221569#post4221569 that it was a concern well before "the CFC" started using it, they just weren't making any changes to them for 1.1. We're beyond 1.1 territory now, and they're now looking to make changes. Sure CFC was also making lots of complaint posts well before Martini ordered everyone into Dominixs for 4 months straight too. Or were you absent from the game when N3 and PL were having limited success with Prophecy/Dominix fleets during the Fountain War. This isn't a four month quest by CFC to save the game, its a year long whine because they were upset N3 and PL were using ships and mechanics that countered their 200 man Celestis Blobs.The past 4 months has been CFC massing Domis and drones in every engagement because Martini said he wanted to force the "issue" on CCP and make the change it. Because as usual instead of manning up and finding a counter to drones CFC would rather CCP just change a mechanic to make the game easier for them. Which is why Martini claimed Victory when this thread was posted. Everyone here knows drone assist was never the issue CCP Rise Claims it to be, and we all know this fix doesn't address either of his concerns laid out in the OP. It is a placebo nerf meant to appease 65K whiners from nullsec. so I guess if recalling in order the events that took place during the great drone whine of 2013 is a citing a narrative....just call me Morgan Freeman.
This was my point a few post back. That the goal was not to prevent n3/pl from using Drones, but the CFC. Blasters for life
https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com |
Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Sicarius Draconis
96
|
Posted - 2014.02.11 12:39:00 -
[15] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Phox Jorkarzul wrote:Fix Sov wrote:I know the narrative is that it's all the CFC's fault, but I'm pretty certain James demonstrated in https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4221569#post4221569 that it was a concern well before "the CFC" started using it, they just weren't making any changes to them for 1.1. We're beyond 1.1 territory now, and they're now looking to make changes. I disagree that it is the CFC's fault. That is not my narrative. I saw the link that James posted and I fully understand that they were thinking about doing something. What I'm saying is they are doing something that does not achive either of the goals that they set out to achieve. Well that's a pretty fair point to argue, although it's one that I disagree with.
And that is a fair play as well. But it still stands to reason that N3/PL will still use large carrier fleet that use drones (I have faith that they'll figure it out), so you'll still have large fleets using drones. Also I would venture to say that you'll be hard pressed to find anyone that trully enjoys 10% TiDi fights. So both goals are not achieved . Blasters for life
https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com |
Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Sicarius Draconis
97
|
Posted - 2014.02.11 14:36:00 -
[16] - Quote
Pinky Hops wrote:Weaselior wrote:Arsine Mayhem wrote:Weaselior wrote:Arsine Mayhem wrote: Yea, cause it's far beyond an F1 monkey's capability. You couldn't manage to train your monkeys to expand beyond that so you cry.
quantity has a quality of its own Yea, just like the bigger the turd the more it smells. very true, which begs the question why you think it is a good idea to get into a turd-throwing contest with the producers of the most immense, the most pungent, the most throwable turds Are you implying that whoever has the most people should automatically win? That doesn't sound very EVE-like. It's well and good to nerf something that causes tremendous lag, but there damn well should be strategies that aren't all about who has the most numbers. If it comes down to that, EVE really will die. We need more depth to combat in this game. Removing tools to reduce lag is a step in the right direction. But we also need tools to counter bigger blobs.
I was writing on my blog about this idea of countering the blog, but it'll never happen. EVE is and always be ran by the idea od N+1. All fleets fit this. Blasters for life
https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com |
Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Sicarius Draconis
97
|
Posted - 2014.02.11 15:23:00 -
[17] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:
ccp repeatedly and aggressively nerfs things that let small groups of players beat the blob, this change is no different
^ this may be the most truthful thing on this thread Blasters for life
https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com |
Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Sicarius Draconis
97
|
Posted - 2014.02.12 00:36:00 -
[18] - Quote
Pinky Hops wrote:Weaselior wrote:Pinky Hops wrote:Before I answer this question you have to prove to me that you actually read the first post of this thread. um no, pinky hops, you claimed goonswarm never creates content then said "Going out of your way to bring a fight to somebody on their own turf is pretty much the definition of content." i assume you've realized your horrible mistake by now we're now agreed that the organization that has invaded more regions in the galaxy than any other, and has created such great content that news stories about our exploits are now expected, and not merely limited our content creation to 0.0 but created great content in highsec when we went out of our way to bring many fights to people on their own turf such as asteroid and ice belts and we are also agreed on the correlary, that this "pinky hops" who claimed goonswarm has never created content, boy was that guy an idiot huh correct? Oh please. You barely ever create content. Only when you have some bone to pick with a specific entity, and you will do the minimum amount of work possible and complain the entire time. Also, writing your own news stories about your own crap doesn't count. Btw, you have yet to prove that you actually read the OP, as given by your outright false representation of why CCP made the changes that they did.
Pinky Hops you be crazy. While I don't agree with GSF and a lot of stuff they, you would be hard pressed to find one other group out there that generates more content in this game.
Blasters for life
https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com |
Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Sicarius Draconis
97
|
Posted - 2014.02.12 04:41:00 -
[19] - Quote
I have to hand it to Grath and Mario they are consistent. Most people would have given up by now.
Blasters for life
https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com |
Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Sicarius Draconis
97
|
Posted - 2014.02.12 04:44:00 -
[20] - Quote
EDIT: Not wroth posting about Blasters for life
https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com |
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Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Sicarius Draconis
97
|
Posted - 2014.02.12 14:19:00 -
[21] - Quote
Pinky Hops wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Removing anchoring and fleet warp doesn't lead to an improvement in gameplay for the line member Wtf? Yes it does. Anchoring leads to passive gameplay just like drone assist. Removing it increases the amount of stuff that a line member gets to do. Thus, it's an improvement to gameplay. Fleet warp I think should stay because there's no other way to manually adjust your warp speed.
I disagree. It should be removed as well. Blasters for life
https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com |
Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Sicarius Draconis
97
|
Posted - 2014.02.13 00:11:00 -
[22] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:
-"will fire 50 drones worth of alpha every 4 seconds at up to 25 different targets."-
Tell me again if you think that after my 5 minutes of EFT theory crafting that this nerf will make that much of a difference?
You gave the answer before asking the question. Yes it will have less impact in subcap fights, as 50 drones can still hurt if not kill most subcaps in 1 or 2 volleys. Capital fights is where this change will have its greatest effect. As is intended I believe. Right now 100 carriers can assign 10 sentries each to 1 person who then fires on an enemy target. That target is going to die, fairly fast because of the huge alpha. Once drone assign is restricted to 50, the overall effect of drone assist is changed. It now relies on each player the drones are assigned to hitting the right button at the right time. You now need 10 people to deal the damage instead of 1, problem is - peoples reaction times, ability to follow instructions (lock the right target), lag, etc all affect the damage dealt. If 1 or 2 drone triggers are damped or jammed and unable to lock the target, the overall affect of your fleets drones is lowered. EWAR is a must for any fleet likely to face drone boats, without it you give your opponent a big head start to winning.
And think Grath's point is talking about carriers fighting subcaps. Where it does really change. Because I know several time on this thread he has said that its all about tools for the job and if you're talking about cap on cap fights then that is what supers and dreads are for. Blasters for life
https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com |
Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Sicarius Draconis
97
|
Posted - 2014.02.13 05:36:00 -
[23] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:(this opens a side conversation about how to reward people for a broader and more diverse coverage of ship types to avoid full fleets of one ship type) Generally you do that by making it so one ship can't do everything. HTH
But not one ship can do everything. Granted that some ships can do a lot, but they can't do everything. Blasters for life
https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com |
Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Sicarius Draconis
97
|
Posted - 2014.02.13 12:09:00 -
[24] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote: Yeah, I'm talking about skill training. You cannot paint passive mechanics with a wide brush and say they're all bad. Is PI bad because it's passive? Manufacturing? Market trading?
My argument against drone assist had nothing to do with its passivity.
Yes they are. And hell might as well remove them. if you want to people to build, then use WIS and show them hammering away. If you want to Market Trade use WIS to show the people in Jita screaming BUY HERE! Want to train skill, then log in. ;)
Blasters for life
https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com |
Phox Jorkarzul
Deep Void Merc Syndicate Sicarius Draconis
97
|
Posted - 2014.02.13 20:07:00 -
[25] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Grath Telkin wrote:WHAT, I CAN'T HEAR YOU OVER THE ROAR OF THE CELESTIS FLEET, SPEAK UP (edit: or RR BS or Tengu fleet or Ahacs that are made up entirely of zealots) if we field just a fleet of celestises we'll be pasted by most fleets celestises are just one of the components of our fleets
I laughed at both these statements. Blasters for life
https://neverpheedthetroll.blogspot.com |
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